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Especially BlissDancer since we're both bellydancers - the more I hear from or read about it, the more confusing all the decriptions are of the hip motion. I'm probably overthinking the hip motion, trying to get it to feel right -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Thu, April 16, 2009 - 8:44 AMIt feels like a reverse camel in the low belly to me: hips tuck under as the horse steps underneath on the hind, then rolls up and out into the low belly as the motion travels into the front legs, then belly releases and hips slide back to neutral as the horse is "airborne" for a beat. I can get tense in the canter and have to consciously think of the release-to-neutral to make sure I relax into the saddle and follow the motion. -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Fri, April 17, 2009 - 4:10 PMah, thank you so much! I will try that next time! I was definitely not doing that - I kept hearing scoot, swing, rock, etc., but bellydancers think differently than regular folks about hip motion for sure. -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Sat, April 18, 2009 - 9:44 AMNo kidding--two belly dance classes fixed years of hip problems for me! And the canter depart feels just like initiating the camel to me: a big pelvic drop, then pushing forwards into the pommel to lift the horse up into that first stride.
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Sun, April 19, 2009 - 8:24 PMI'm supposed to think about it that hard???
I just let my body go with the flow, and don't analyze it... though... NOW I'm sure that next time I hop up onto one of my three, I'm going to feel it... LOL -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 6:16 AMThat's what I'd love to do, turn off my brain & go with the flow... I think being a dance teacher has made me over-analytical. Plus riding is kind of scary for me, frankly!
Thank you again Amy, I DID try that in class yesterday (the reverse undulation) and it helped! But evidently I was not doing just the pelvic but the whole thing (can't imagine how that looked lol). My teacher said there was too much going on in the upper body. She only has me try it twice a lesson, so maybe that's why it takes me a while. I don't mind tho, twice is about my comfort limit!
If it's not raining next week I'll take my video camera & see what they heck I'm doing up there. Just so much to think about all at once. -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 10:25 AMDuring our intro riding lessons, we'd instruct the students to grab the front of the saddle with their inside hand, then leeeaaaannnn back like an ol' cowbody rodeo rider and just relax. It helps you sit deep and pull your hips into the saddle, where you can just absorb the motion and the feeling, and the hand-hold helps you to psychologically feel less vulnerable. It's true that you don't always want to be "doing an undulation" and pumping away up there so much as just relaxing and going with the flow, but the "flow" is like an undulation, and knowing what the horse will be making my body do helps me relax into it. And, when the horse needs a little extra push, I know how to signal that ("lift their withers with your hips").
And, doing it a lot definitely helps. For some reason, the canter just isn't as natural to me. Sitting the trot isn't a problem, but sitting the canter is. Go figure. Some things that helped me include:
- lunge line lessons--that way, someone else could worry about steering the horse, and I could just focus on me
- riding w/o stirrups and riding bareback. It'll help you connect with your horse and your seat. Starting at the walk is fine. When time came to try the canter sans stirrups or saddle, I thought it was going to be terrifying, but it was so much better than I imagined.
- riding by myself on a really good ol' lesson horse. He took such good care of me and taught me a lot, and having time on my own really helped me work through things (I can get very analytical, too).
<<Plus riding is kind of scary for me, frankly! >> A little alertness to the potential dangers (as I like to think of it now as I age) is a healthy thing. -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 7:13 AMCan you explain a little more about lifting the withers with your hips?
Can you explain this at walk or trot?
Thank you ... -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 8:15 AMOne of the first lessons I ever had ,,,the riding instructor said
we are going to teach the horse how to walk, trot and canter,,
,I raised my hand up and said , doesn't the horse know that already on their own,,,
I also tend to believe people over - analyze way too much
especially with horses,,,watch your horse go into a cantor
or a trot on their own,,,especially watch how they go from a
walk to a trot or the canter,,,and then back down to a walk,,,
watch this so you can see for your self what is taking place, rather
than some persons version of whats taking place,,,
If the horse can do a real good ground covering walk,,,then can tip up into a trot
and then back to a walk,,,quite a few times, they'll be relaxed and so will you,,,
then ask for a trot and barely open your knees and your horse will canter,,,
Trying too hard to " pick up the withers" can confuse horses with mixed signals from the
riders hands and body posture,,,watch the horse on their own and visualize you sitting
on their back,,,
another way to look at it is young kids trot all over the place,,,then comes a time when girls skip,,,
the skip is a canter,,,its not the big deal most riding instructors make it out to be,,,they just want to seem
knowledgable,,,and it certainly doesn't need books written about a subject the horse does very naturally on their own
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 8:03 PM<<I also tend to believe people over - analyze way too much >>
Maybe I'm too sensitive tonight, but that kinda ticks me off. Who are you to judge how much I need to analyze something? People work differently. Personally, it needs to make sense in my head before it will make sense in my body, so I have to analyze it before I can do it. And, based on the popularity of "Centered Riding" and the use of balance balls for "dry riding", I'm not alone.
<<and it certainly doesn't need books written about a subject the horse does very naturally on their own >>
Just because a horse does it naturally on their own, doesn't mean there is anything "natural" about *riding. In fact, carrying a rider fundamentally alters the way a horse moves, shifting from 60% of their weight from their front legs (hence the larger front hooves) to 60% of their weight on the back legs (hence "collecting" or "compressing"). And a clever little "doesn't the horse know how to trot?" response isn't really the question--the question is, does the horse know how to carry a rider while trotting when the rider asks? Plus, not every horse knows how to move correctly. We all know how to run, but how many of us would need a trainer to know how to run a marathon with proper form? Our job as a rider is to train our horse to carry a rider correctly, lest risking injury to them.
And thinking of "picking up the withers" doesn't confuse my horse. It's the mental imagine I learned that, when used on my mare, makes the most effortless canter depart I have ever ridden in my life. I just think "up" and it's just breathtaking. I fail to see how that's any different from "watch the horse on their own and visualize you sitting on their back,,, ". That's exactly what I'm doing. My horse steps under, dropping her hips and lifting her withers. To sit that, my hips mimic her, dropping my hips and lifting with the withers. Starting that canter motion signals to her that "here's what we're doing next".
Finally:
<<its not the big deal most riding instructors make it out to be,,,they just want to seem knowledgable,>>
My riding instructors didn't make a big deal of it at all--and that was my problem. If mental images and descriptions don't work for you, fine. But some of us need to collect "versions of what's taking place" in order to find one that works for us. Telling us to "just do it" is basically just blowing us off. -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 8:21 PM(And, again, I'm really cranky tonight, so please except my apologizes for taking out years of aggravating "aw, just do it!" riding advice on just poor lil' you. There are many other instructors I've had who deserved my full wrath!).
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 6:18 AMI know where you're coming from, but I've been teaching bellydance for over 20 years, and believe me, if I could just say "just watch me dance & then you do it" that would be soooo much easier! For some reason tho, students keep coming back to class week after week LOL
Every now & then I actually do that, but it usually doesn't work for most people because of many things like being self conscious in front of the teacher or other students, unconscious body reactions (stiffening up, anxiety response), faulty body awareness & control, inablity to hear the music (I guess that might be feel the horse), etc.
You may be one of the fortunate few "natural" riders like there's natural dancers who CAN just watch & then do it.
BUT, I will watch the horses more closely when the more experienced riders are going into canter tho -
My teacher's told me several times that after someone learns the canter they love it & think it's the most fun. I can't wait!
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 8:14 PMIt's not something that I think of during the walk or trot, but for picking up the rocking motion of the canter.
Here's how it works in my head:
When your horse is starting the canter, they have to step underneath themselves with the outside hind. That gathering drops their hips and lifts the withers, giving the impression that you're starting to ride up a hill. When your sitting on the horse with relaxed hips, your hips will drop down as the horse steps under, then push up and forwards as the horse steps further into the gait. For a seamless canter transition, I start that motion as I put on my leg (or, with my super-sensitive mare, just the hip motion is enough) to encourage my horse to step deep underneath herself and lighten her front end. I think of dropping my hips down, pushing her haunches down, then pushing forwards. If you do it standing, well, frankly it looks quite rude ;o) .
Another way I used to think of it was of "getting out of their way." There's something about moving fast on a horse that makes us want to lean forwards. But, when we lean forwards, we're putting weight on their front end, the exact opposite of how a horse needs to move to carry a rider. If I think of "pushing" my horse and "lifting" her, it makes me sit back further, getting my weight off the front and out of their way. As one instructor described it "60% of your horse should be in front of you". So, I'm "pushing" an extra 10% in front of me.
And, again, I want to caution that you're not just pumping away up there constantly during the canter. Ideally, your hips are passively following, only "pushing" to start the canter or increase speed or extension. -
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Wed, April 22, 2009 - 7:55 AMmisunderstandings happen,,,visuallizing how the horse moves,
and then visualizing sitting with the motion also teaches,,,
your above comment about staying out of the horses way sums it up,,,
a problem people have sometimes is they try to make something happen
or they get out of rythm with the horse,,,this leads to frustration, and getting
thru the frustration is part of the learning process,,,
too often when we try to remember every little detail and think our way thru
then the moment has already occured,,,thats why with people who look
congruent with the horse the thinking has given way to feeling thru the
process where it becomes second nature
with the ground covering walk and multiple transitions from the walk to the trot
and then right back to the walk, including changes of directions allows the horse to get in tune
with us, and the person with the horse,,,the horses back will be more relaxed and so will their breathing,,,
If the horses back is tight and their breathing is shallow due to uncertainty of the rider, then
all the talk about which leg should go where is pointless,,,a nervous horse and a nervous rider
make for a rotten canter,,,,getting congruent where there is less pressure and intensity will lead
up to the canter if the preparation and the communication is there,,,
I was looking at the canter from a horses point of view,,,,if the horse can go into a canter
on their own,,,then we should be able to duplicate it,,,
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Thu, April 23, 2009 - 7:50 AMSol- I don't think you have taken lessons from my dressage instructor before.
Thank you Amy for taking the time to write here about canter.
I think you both have different expectations of what you want your horse to do.
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Thu, April 23, 2009 - 8:42 AMmy background is classical dressage and reining,,
,both of which I started when i lived in tucson from 1977 to 1982,,
classical dressage is a little different than modern dressage,,,
,and so are some of their approaches,,,
and of course it depends on the instructors ...,,,
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Re: canter movement from a dancer's perspective?
Thu, April 23, 2009 - 1:55 PM<<I think you both have different expectations of what you want your horse to do.>>
I think we're talking about different stages in riding. Yes, ideally I want to be just relaxed, on a naturally collected horse, and just go. And, when I have rides like that, there's nothing on earth better. But, we can't all run before we can walk, and we need to understand what's going on and work on it before it becomes second nature like that. I think also that, when you've been doing something for years, you can forget how hard it was to learn in the first place and so it becomes harder to explain what's going on to a newbie.
I've been thinking about the canter a lot lately because, even though my horse can run around the paddock just fine, she can't collect with a rider w/o falling disjointed into her natural gait. It's just so gosh-darn hard for her, and I've had to spend a lot of time thinking and reading before I could figure out what her problem was and how I could help out. We're just now getting into beautiful canter departs, so this threads been really helpful for me to think through where we need to go next.
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